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TOPJEDI

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Imbedded Galactic News Journalist and Hyperspace Commentator
Articles Posted: 80  Links Seeded: 822
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Have you been convinced lately?

Thu Jun 8, 2006 10:58 PM EDT
politics, news, humor, views, comment, defend, argue, convince, persuade
By TopJedi
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Under the guise of "Getting Smarter Here" countless posts have hit the front page attacking tough issues and passionately arguing a point of view.

We all have a natural energy for persuasion and a desire to convey our perspectives as logically, emotionally and convincingly as possible. But given the set of beliefs each of us carry and our own sense of persuasive power and ego, has anyone been convinced lately?

This is not an attempt to psychoanalyze why we post articles, persuade, defend or attack, but rather to take a look at some of the approaches we see every day and consider with you what works and what doesn't.

Convincing others may not even be at the heart of your comment, but improving our approach can help all of us get smarter.

What doesn't work

1. CAPS. WRITING IN ALL CAPS DOES NOT GIVE YOUR ARGUMENT A SPECIAL ADVANTAGE OR PROVIDE A CONVINCING APPROACH. RATHER MOST PEOPLE READ THAT YOU ARE YELLING AT THEM.

2. Personal attacks. I have yet to see anyone come around to a point of view because they were sufficiently insulted, embarrassed or intimidated.

Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are convinced beyond doubt that they are right. ~ Laurens Van der Post

3. Restating the obvious. "If only I could make you understand" captures this approach in a nutshell. The "persuader" goes back again and again, "listen to me closely," "let me spell it out for you," "remember the first five reasons? Think about them again ok."

One comes to believe whatever one repeats to oneself sufficiently often, whether the statement be true of false. It comes to be dominating thought in one's mind. ~ Robert Collier

Chances are good the audience understood the first, second, and third time. Repeating may result in only dominating threads or thoughts, but if others continue to disagree with your points it is not necessarily because their skull is too thick or their ears plugged up.

4. Emphasizing the unrelated. "Dude you totally can't spell so go chew on some Alphabits." or "You may be right, but if I said 'therefore' 12 times in one comment I would kill myself."

Those are some exaggerated diversions thrown into the comment sections when thoughtful response is out of reach.

What may work

1. Re-posting parts of the comment you are addressing. It tends to conveys that you have read the other point of view, considered it, and are taking the time to begin a thoughtful response.

2. Sharing a personal experience. Learning from others is a great way to get smarter and others can appreciate informative anecdotes that are not so adversarial.

3. Offering your views with a sense of humor. We enjoy it, we appreciate it, we can actually hear what is being said.

Anyone without a sense of humor is at the mercy of everyone else. ~ William Rotsler

Humor is a rubber sword--it allows you to make a point without drawing blood. ~Mary Hirsch

4. Posting links. Whenever you offer a fact based premise it goes a lot further with a link to an objective authoritative source. Just don't expect the link to speak for itself or others to be suddenly convinced.

Nobody believes the official spokesman... but everybody trusts an unidentified source. ~ Ron Nesen

5. Conceding elements of your viewpoint. Chances are good you don't own the copyright on truth, so be willing to accept that there are views you can concede, even as you assert your own points of view. It goes a long way to showing some open-mindedness.

Convinced?

Of course not...

For every person who wants to teach there are approximately thirty people who don't want to learn--much. W. C. Sellar and R. J. Yeatman

But here's hoping we consider our approaches and keep and open mind:

Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. ~ Sir Winston Churchill

Have you encountered some colorful examples of convincing and unconvincing approaches?

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  • Public Discussion (99)
TopJedi

Here's a good one:

Ah, the old "if-you-don't-agree-with-me-you-are-not-patriotic" argument.

Don't you guys ever get tired of it?

Patriotism is such an abused word these days. It's sad and pathetic. What's even more pathetic is that the majority of those who use it probably have done jack for the country. Their patriotism is limited to saying that they are patriotic and maybe spending a buck or two to put up a "patriotic" bumper sticker.

Arm-chair patriotism, the American way. - cited from Rhine Cyrus

  • 16 votes
Reply#1 - Thu Jun 8, 2006 11:14 PM EDT
Rhine Cyrus

Thanks for including it.

For those interested, here's the original context

  • 11 votes
#1.1 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 11:58 AM EDT
Reply
Adam Hobson

When I first read you title I though it said Have you been convicted lately? and the included picture did not exactly dissuade me from that mistake. I was all ready for an extremely weird column or something. And though I was a bit disappointed when it turned out you were merely posting on convincing people, I feel that you made some great points. Usually if I see a comment or two using one of your What doesn't work strategies, I instantly ignore the rest of that conversation for I usually have far better ways to spend my time.

One more point though:
This may be a bit cosmetic, but I have far more respect for someone who seems as though they spent the time and effort to use somewhat correct grammar and at least hit the Check Spelling button. Also correctly utilized HTML helps to best format your comment or post and will thus allow the reader an easy time following your points as you intend.

  • 12 votes
Reply#2 - Thu Jun 8, 2006 11:55 PM EDT
TopJedi

A convicted article might be a lot more interesting ;-) I'm sure I'll deliver a really weird article soon enough.

Usually if I see a comment or two using one of your What doesn't work strategies, I instantly ignore the rest of that conversation

That's exactly the point... some people try repeatedly to enhance their arguments with methods that lose readership. And right on Adam, the more effort people put into checking spelling the more they convey that your time is valuable.

Thanks!

  • 10 votes
#2.1 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:00 AM EDT
Walt D

This may not be quite what you're looking for but I get annoyed when people only read a comment partially before responding. I'm probably guilty of this too - I imagine this is due to some point riling me up so much I can't wait til the end of the comment to respond. Another factor is the familiarity some of us have with each other; we think we know what the other's going to say, so why read the entirety of the comment?

Another pet peeve of mine is what I call "Straw Man by Proxy". This is when someone responds to your post by first paraphrasing your content into a form more easily disputed. These comments usually begin with "So what you're saying is..." or "If I understand you correctly..." Beware these phrases, for the poster will now twist your words and ideas to his/her advantage and respond to the now altered, diluted or just plain fictitious content.

  • 13 votes
#2.2 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:41 AM EDT
Micrastur

Walt D, I agree. If I write

"So what you're saying is..."

that should tell me to go back and reread the post. But it is communication, and sometimes I guess it is just the natural course of misunderstanding and clarification.

  • 3 votes
#2.3 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 1:35 AM EDT
Aine MacDermot

Sometimes I'll restate what someone says, not to twist their words but to clarify if what I'm reading is what they actually meant. It may be that I'm stupid about a specific topic area, or it may be that they didn't do a great job of expressing what they meant the first time. And I'm certainly open to them clarifying what it was they wrote.

  • 18 votes
#2.4 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:07 AM EDT
Behind My Screen

Yeah... I agree Adam. Though in a comments section, proper grammar will be a bit loose (as one can see from this atrocious grammatical structure that I am using).

I feel that playing a little lose allows a more conversational feel. I am not necessarily being as thoughtful as I normally would had I written a document, so a more stream of thought feeling seem fine and appropriate.

I must admit though, I have been guilty of typing and not looking at what I have typed before I hit post. that got me into trouble a few times, especially when I was discussing logic in another article's comment section... I thought I typed one thing, but I ended up flip-flopping the words so the first part made no sense.

  • 7 votes
#2.5 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:08 PM EDT
Behind My Screen

Walt D.
[sarcasm]
So, what you are saying is that everyone else is dumb...

that is not very nice of you!!!
[/sarcasm]

  • 6 votes
#2.6 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:12 PM EDT
Walt D

Behind My Screen,

To follow your line of logic (another favorite of mine), you hate me and therefore all Americans - in fact, you hate America itself! So when did you stop mugging old ladies for crack money? ;)

  • 8 votes
#2.7 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:20 PM EDT
kevinb66

So when did you stop mugging old ladies for crack money?

Is that wrong?

  • 11 votes
#2.8 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 5:45 PM EDT
Reply
Brad Leclerc

The biggest issue that I've seen on here, including myself (a lot), is the tendency to ramble on in a comment and end up talking about something completely unrelated to the point that was being made in the first place. Makes it hard to follow, and even harder to reply to since there is usually a fair bit of unrelated junk to deal with. I'm TERRIBLE at loosing track of what I was talking about and just going on and on and on and on and on and on and on about something else in the same comment, and I've noticed a few others are the same way from time to time.

  • 3 votes
Reply#3 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:55 AM EDT
Micrastur

I really enjoyed this article. Have I been convinced lately? Sort of. In yar's 1st poll, a thread started by Brian White I was convinced that a debate on what to do about Iraq could be held on common ground, instead to the usual "everything the U.S. is doing militarily in Iraq is right" versus "everything the U.S. is doing militarily in Iraq is wrong". I still don't know what to do about Iraq, but in that thread at least, both "sides" were asking the same questions:

U.S. presence mitigating a civil war depends on the Shiite security forces maintaining order? Do you think they're more likely to do that if the U.S. does a rapid pullout? -- ryanahagan

P.S. Am I the only one who thinks he is carefully checking for grammar mistakes yet always ends up with them? Maybe I'm dyslexic or something:)

  • 3 votes
Reply#4 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 1:28 AM EDT
Micrastur

LOL --

instead to the usual

I meant instead of the usual! I have to go tend to the gunshot wound in my foot now:)

  • 1 vote
#4.1 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 1:30 AM EDT
Reply
Jim Dent

Good article Top. sometimes I find that after about the third or fourth "volley", you finally have to say "look, I understand your point. You say blah blah blah and I totally understand what your saying, I just disagree..."

...And sometimes I look back at a disagreement that went on for 8 or 10 comments and wish I had the sense to take a little of my own medicine. Ain't hindsight great....

  • 13 votes
Reply#5 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 1:58 AM EDT
TopJedi

We live and learn. Thanks Jim.

  • 4 votes
#5.1 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 2:18 AM EDT
Reply
Pamela Drew

It must take a top Jedi to have such wisdom. I'm probably guilty of hitting the pitfalls but will try to keep your points in mind and work to reduce the negatives. Thank you for the suggestions. The examples to illustrate are perfect.

  • 3 votes
Reply#6 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 3:33 AM EDT
JimmyHavokDeleted
TopJedi

Jimmy that comment and attack if appropriate at all belongs on the related article not this one.

  • 3 votes
#6.2 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 7:03 PM EDT
Micrastur

Ahh the irony...

    #6.3 - Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:03 AM EDT
    TopJedi

    Indeed. Probably posted to provoke the irony.

    • 3 votes
    #6.4 - Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:14 AM EDT
    Reply
    Matt Kennedy

    Some guy called me an idiot because I have this strange notion that Mexicans (and anyone else immigrating to the United States) should learn basic English. It did nothing for his arguments, and since I'm not about to let some coward hiding behind a screenname call me names and attack my character, I had to reply in kind.

    It was actually probably the rudest comment I've ever received from anyone here on Newsvine.

    • 4 votes
    Reply#7 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 3:33 AM EDT
    Jason Coleman

    Matt, I do agree that it's frustrating to try and have an adult conversation with someone who goes by 'what-not58' (I totally made that one up), but responding "in kind" is rarely the best tactic. It really only lowers you both to the level of name-calling and does nothing for the conversation. It certainly won't convince the other person (or anyone) that you were right, only that you were easily angered by someone you don't even really know.

    • 8 votes
    #7.1 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 9:47 AM EDT
    StacyM

    This is actually a good example of what WaltD mentioned, about only reading part of a post before having a knee-jerk emotional response.

    Matt, the comment he posted was in response to a very rude and stereotypical statement you made.

    He pointed out that you were stereotyping a specific group of people, and he brought up a point that the shop owner's sign might alienate tourists to this country who might not speak English.

    I fail to see where he put in any opinion about whether or not immigrants to America should speak English, this is something you formulated in your own head.

    Should he have called you an idiot? Maybe not. But he explained quite clearly his reasons for doing so, so your insistence that it is because you "have this strange notion that Mexicans (and anyone else immigrating to the United States) should learn basic English" is patently false. I don't disagree with him at all for calling you out on what you said.

    I think a problem with online debate sometimes is that people don't realize that it's not necessarily the idea itself that is seen as offensive, it is the way that idea is expressed. The opinion may be solid, but if it is expressed in an offensive manner, such as being degrading, condescending, or stereotypical, people are going to focus on that instead and you will convince no one.

    • 12 votes
    #7.2 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:18 PM EDT
    Matt Kennedy

    So if someone explains their reasons for doing so clearly, that gives them some sort of leeway in calling someone else an idiot? I may have made stereotype there, but what he did was no better and defending him for it doesn't make you any better either. I mean, if one wrong makes the next one right, can I call you an idiot for defending what he said? Maybe not. Three wrongs hasn't made a right yet, now have they? Besides, my follow up post to that topic should have clarified my opinion on the issue anyways, and you would (possibly) see that while I think Mexicans are the biggest problem, everyone who comes the United States should learn some English. It benefits them considerably to do so.

    • 1 vote
    #7.3 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 1:28 PM EDT
    Behind My Screen

    I dunno... I think there are certain circumstances that you will not educate a person at all such as some one that is racist. In such situations I think it is OK to call some one an idiot.

    Wanting mexicans to learn english is not racist however.... unless you have racist motivations behind it.

    • 4 votes
    #7.4 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 2:42 PM EDT
    TopJedi

    "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?" ~ George Carlin

    May be some applicable truth in our expression of views.

    • 8 votes
    #7.5 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 2:47 PM EDT
    Matt Kennedy

    Blatant hatred and racism deserve a strong response, but only after it's been confirmed the person is unwilling to listen to reason.

    And to add to what I said earlier regarding StacyM's defense of diggityDawg:

    I think a problem with online debate sometimes is that people don't realize that it's not necessarily the idea itself that is seen as offensive, it is the way that idea is expressed. The opinion may be solid, but if it is expressed in an offensive manner, such as being degrading, condescending, or stereotypical, people are going to focus on that instead and you will convince no one.

    This place is supposed to be about getting smarter. If someone calls me an idiot, I'm not going to listen to what they have to say because it's, and I quote, "degrading, condescending, or stereotypical" and I'll "focus on that instead and you will convince no one." I just came away annoyed, and unwilling to consider what diggityDawg had to say for the exact same reason you said people won't listen to what I said.

    And I don't see him being chastised for making nearly the same mistake I did by anyone else...

    • 3 votes
    #7.6 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 2:58 PM EDT
    TopJedi

    Matt I think it's pretty clear calling someone an idiot is intended primarily to offend and end dialogue. Desire to convince or reason has left the building at that point. When I'm called an idiot I would do the same as you - I state my objection, maybe creatively counter-attack and disassociate with the dialogue.

    • 6 votes
    #7.7 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 3:05 PM EDT
    Luís Bruno

    Well, take me as an example: I don't see the point behind being polite after you realize the other guy is using your politeness against you.

    Why not state the obvious, and end it by calling what he actually is? If I call someone selfish, I do mean it. And I don't really care if I'm not polite. Politeness has left the building, as you say, when the other guy is being disingenuous.

    That, in my book, calls for:

    • restating your point as clearly as possible
    • state the specific fallacies which have been committed
    • and calling the other guy $YOU_KNOW_WHAT
    • 1 vote
    #7.8 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 3:24 PM EDT
    Aine MacDermot

    Luis Bruno, I understand your point, but here's my take. There are other ways to call a person an idiot without actually saying it... and extreme politeness and wit are often very useful. Some people are also good at doing this with humor, exaggeration, or satire (i.e. Monty Python). If your language skills are up to par, you can often accomplish the same without your opponent even realizing he's been called an idiot... until and unless someone later points it out to him. Another useful tactic is to lead your opponent around in a circle during debate until he is, at last, defending the point you originally made... at which point, you quote yourself, showing him the folly of his argument. I've had great fun with that last tactic, though I haven't employed it at Newsvine just yet. ;)

    • 9 votes
    #7.9 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:06 PM EDT
    Walt D

    Do me a favor, Aine. If you ever feel tempted to employ this nefarious tactic on me, feel free to just go ahead and call me an idiot. Deal?

    • 9 votes
    #7.10 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:29 PM EDT
    robK

    See comment below.

    • 1 vote
    #7.11 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:39 PM EDT
    Aine MacDermot

    Do me a favor, Aine. If you ever feel tempted to employ this nefarious tactic on me, feel free to just go ahead and call me an idiot. Deal?

    *laughing*
    Deal!

    • 6 votes
    #7.12 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:42 PM EDT
    Brad Leclerc

    If I'm every being an idiot (probably pretty common sometimes lol), please call me an idiot and beat me with a stick, I don't undertstand subtlety very well :P

    • 6 votes
    #7.13 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 10:48 PM EDT
    Reply
    KyleN

    Good article.

    The argument I find the least convincing and yet see the most in economic and political debates on newsvine could be paraphrased thus

    My way is right because it cares for and helps people while your way hurts people and leaves them hungry and cold

    I have to say I've yet to run across anybody on this site that posts ideas for the intent of harming society, even those whose ideas I think will do just that I can see it's not their intent.

    • 2 votes
    Reply#8 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 8:16 AM EDT
    TopJedi

    So very true Kyle.

    I have to say I've yet to run across anybody on this site that posts ideas for the intent of harming society

    Might be a big step forward if we realize a shared perspective that most comments are intended for the good of society from a wide range of priorities.

    • 4 votes
    #8.1 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 9:52 AM EDT
    Behind My Screen

    Does the ideas intent matter more than the outcome?

    • 2 votes
    #8.2 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:16 PM EDT
    robK

    I'm too busy keeping up with Aine's seeds to comment on them!

    • 5 votes
    #8.3 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:37 PM EDT
    robK

    Oops, I hit "reply" in the wrong place.

      #8.4 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:38 PM EDT
      Aine MacDermot

      I'm too busy keeping up with Aine's seeds to comment on them!

      Alas, you've discovered another nefarious tactic... LOL!

      • 7 votes
      #8.5 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:47 PM EDT
      Reply
      _Von_

      I think that it helps to look at whatever topic you are discussing as a problem that needs to be solved. Everyone involved is offering a solution. If you don't think that the other person's solution isn't going to work, simply tell them why, then offer your own solution.

      Use phrases like "What about the argument that..." or "What if I told you that..." Instead of "You obviously never heard.." or "You don't know what you are talking about..."

      • 8 votes
      Reply#9 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 10:08 AM EDT
      Kris Gosser

      A lot of those ways that don't work seemed quite prevelant on large forum-type sites that have since gone down hill. Digg, GotFrag, and a little bit of SlashDot comes to mind.

      • 7 votes
      Reply#10 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 10:38 AM EDT
      Levi

      Have you seen the yahoo news boards? Thats what I hope newesvine will never become.

      • 5 votes
      #10.1 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 11:55 AM EDT
      robK

      Sometimes I see the Yahoo! news boards and hope that I never live in the world those people live in. Seriously, that would be a scary place.

      • 2 votes
      #10.2 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 1:47 PM EDT
      Aine MacDermot

      *pokes RobK*
      Sorry to break it to you, Rob, but... you do. These people on the yahoo boards are voters.
      *sigh*

      • 6 votes
      #10.3 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 3:18 PM EDT
      robK

      And I had this silly notion that only incarcerated prisoners were on the Yahoo! boards...do they really vote?

      I also had this hope that they were all of Bill O'Reilly's multiple personalities arguing together at once.

      • 3 votes
      #10.4 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 8:29 PM EDT
      Reply
      eSantiago

      Do, or do not, there is no try. Convinced? (for fellow Jedi)

      • 3 votes
      Reply#11 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 10:41 AM EDT
      TopJedi

      Absolutely! One of my favorite quotes :) Thanks eSantiago.

      • 3 votes
      #11.1 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:22 PM EDT
      Reply
      Luís Bruno

      Restating the obvious

      There are some people who purposefully "don't understand" as a way of debating. Which is a very polite way of ignoring the other's argument, while at the same time furthering their own position.

      That's one of the reasons for the other guy to restate the obvious.

      Frankly, isn't that what happened with global warming?

      • 2 votes
      Reply#12 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 11:41 AM EDT
      Behind My Screen

      I am guilty of being a little "hard" on my commenting. I must say though, I have never seen a personal attack here which is why I like the vine so much.

      • 7 votes
      Reply#13 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:01 PM EDT
      Ilyanep

      Great article.

      I'd like to note that I don't even bother reading things that are in all-caps. First of all, it's hard to keep my spot (there's a reason that lowercase letters were invented) and second of all, if the other person didn't take the time to, more or less reasonably, make their post readable then why should I take the time to decrypt it? In fact, on a web forum that I administrate, I have a rule against all 'aimspeak' and 'l33t'.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#14 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:34 PM EDT
      Behind My Screen

      aimspeak is annoying, and I am glad it is not here... hackerspeak is cool thought :-D

      • 1 vote
      #14.1 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 2:43 PM EDT
      Reply
      Paradox460

      How do you do it top? You post articles about seemingly random things, and they always get featured.

      Ill admit I am featured a lot too, but my articles never get the comments or votes of yours. I guess it is just that no one likes me.

      • 5 votes
      Reply#15 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 12:58 PM EDT
      TopJedi

      You friends must be a key reason, I don't know the algorithm but I'm not so gifted to think my articles deserve it and many don't get featured and I drop them. Frankly the comments typically turn out much better.

      • 3 votes
      #15.1 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:25 PM EDT
      Reply
      William Holmes

      I think you have to have "friends" on here to get yer articles seen and voted on.

      Patience is a virtue....or so "they" say

      • 2 votes
      Reply#16 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 3:15 PM EDT
      Aine MacDermot

      No one knew me when I showed up here. I think you mainly have to engage in polite, well-researched debate... seed and write articles that are both interesting and informative... and THEN people begin putting you on their watchlists, at which point, they notice when you have posted something new... then they vote on those things. The "friends" thing didn't come for me until later in the process.

      • 5 votes
      #16.1 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 3:21 PM EDT
      Jason Coleman

      Yes, and it seems taking sides in shouting matches works better for gaining "friends" than patience. I certainly appreciate TopJedi's article, but unfortunately, I'm not sure that any attempts at reasoned discourse have gained anyone popularity here. It seems tantrums , name-calling, and sensationalism get rewarded with votes and front-page exposure far more often.

      I refuse to believe that Newsvine is no better than the supermarket tabloid section, but perhaps there's something in human nature that brings even the best news sources down to the lowest common denominator.

      • 5 votes
      #16.2 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 3:21 PM EDT
      TopJedi

      Actually friend requests work better than shouting matches and patience. Many of us actually read a lot more than we write, and I would like nothing more than to add more friends and quality reads to my watch-list.

      When friends trail each others dialogue I have also seen a lot more come out of the comments than the original article ever intended or provided.

      • 3 votes
      #16.3 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:22 PM EDT
      Jason Coleman

      I don't know, I've been on this site for six months now and while I'm far from the most prolific user, I do feel like I've been an active participant. Perhaps my voice is read by others far different than I intend, but I have made a great deal of effort to try and be fair, patient, and calm. I try and actively make this a better site by providing what I feel are quality news seeds as well as trying to help discussions remain discussions and not bitter arguments. I've even gone so far as to write a bit about how I feel I should use Newsvine in my "about" bio so that others can be able to hold me to a standard of ethics that I think citizen journalism needs in order to be taken seriously.

      All that and about half of the seeds I provide get buried with the hour and are never voted or commented on. Most discussions seem to end up in contests to see who will simply give up first. Articles which seem, to me, to violate one or more rules you (Top) have written above stay on the front page for hours if not days.

      I enjoy the discussion, but it seems that Newsvine has just as often proven to be a captive audience for squeaky wheels who would otherwise never receive as many hits on their blogs (or elsewhere) and therefore seize the leverage they can gain here. My apologies if I seem a bit bitter and jaded by all this, but I suppose that it seems that honest effort has gotten me less than stellar results. I'm not seeking readers, friends, or watchlists. All I'm asking for is some civility and to reward people here who are attempting to help expose us all to more news and less division. There are many more than me here, but I haven't seen many of them get very far, either. I don't mean to say that anyone on the front page or any popular writer is less than a fine citizen journalist, but perhaps we could all try and shift how we use the system to make sure that their the rule and not the exception.

      • 7 votes
      #16.4 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:39 PM EDT
      TopJedi

      I'm not seeking readers, friends, or watchlists. All I'm asking for is some civility and to reward people here who are attempting to help expose us all to more news and less division.

      Jason, I think your sincerity will get you both civility and reward. I try to vote with my feet and when I come across those articles that do nothing but tear down, I am rarely there. If they stay as featured articles, well it's more of an indicator of human nature to pursue the sensational and be entertained by some verbal conflict.

      • 3 votes
      #16.5 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:47 PM EDT
      Jason Coleman

      well it's more of an indicator of human nature to pursue the sensational and be entertained by some verbal conflict.

      Oh, I was afraid of that.

      Hey, sorry if it sound like I was off my meds for that last dissertation. I do think that this site has every bit of the potential it has always had and I'll still be here to read, post, and learn. This article only raises the bar, and that's great.

      • 1 vote
      #16.6 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 4:55 PM EDT
      TopJedi

      No apology necessary. Meanwhile I wish that my telescoping risk article had any readership :)

      • 3 votes
      #16.7 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 5:08 PM EDT
      robK

      I've tried to reward the most level-headed arguments and quality seeds in my time here. I have participated in what I affectionately call "whiney bitch" coment threads, but those authors are not on my watchlist.

      • 3 votes
      #16.8 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 8:41 PM EDT
      Reply
      jumier

      Great article TopJedi!

      I'd like to think that I am already following your advice but if I ever falter I hope somebody nails me on it. I am a big fan of debating and its proper method. I try to be as polite as possible and respect everyone's point of view because I have an annoying habit of playing devil's advocate (which my friends are sick of, that's why I'm here).

      I have to say that I am convinced all the time here on Newsvine. It was relatively recently that I became interested in politics and world events. While my principle beliefs have not changed, I am still settling into my positions on certain issues. We have a really intelligent community here that fosters excellent debate. The most convincing of the posts are those that have citations and links to more information and conversely the most unconvincing posts are those that repeat talking points and spit out seemingly factual information without a source.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#17 - Fri Jun 9, 2006 5:04 PM EDT
      JimmyHavok

      The big question is, who are you trying to persuade? If you're trying to persuade the person you are responding to, then soft words may be effective. But if your intended target for persuasion is other readers, rather than the writer, then scorn may be more effective, especially if the scorn is backed up by a solid argument.

      In many cases, a comment that deserves rebuttal has originated in a hardened opinion, not susceptible to persuasion. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed, and addressed with words and a tone that are appropriate to its content. A spade should be called a spade. If a comment is stupid, it should be called stupid. If it is venal, it should be called venal. A straw man should be called a straw man, and a false dilemma should be called a false dilemma, and anyone who tries to foist them on readers should be mocked without mercy.

      Mushmouthed agreeableness does no one any good. I'd rather read a sharp exchange than an interminable variation on "Yes, but..."

      And, yes, I have been persuaded...though not often.

      • 5 votes
      Reply#18 - Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:43 AM EDT
      stevetherobot

      I have to agree. Are we such delicate flowers that we can't handle the often rough and tumble world that is internet discourse? Sure trolling and extreme abuse should not be tolerated, but let's not start crying and refuse to engage every time somebody calls us an idiot.

      • 3 votes
      #18.1 - Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:07 AM EDT
      Reply
      Captain Nemo

      Why is it so often Asians in the pictures you apply to your interesting articles, Yoda? Is it because you are Asian, or do you just not particularly like/dislike Asians?

      • 1 vote
      Reply#19 - Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:58 PM EDT
      TopJedi

      Actually I thought my most interesting articles featured Africans. My South American photo'd article bombed, and looking back it seems Asians have been a bit under represented on my column. Its probably more interesting that you noticed, and more closely related to finding the photos that connected with what I was trying to capture. I grew up as a minority in many cultures and probably relate and consider myself more at home with internationals.

      • 3 votes
      #19.1 - Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:18 PM EDT
      TopJedi

      Claus, I'm a little s l o w ... I totally regret if the photo offended based on ethnicity and actions (hopefully a moment of humor between friends). If you say so, I will pull it. The photo simply represented well in my mind how some people try to persuade me.

        #19.2 - Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:13 AM EDT
        Adam Hobson

        I think my eyes need checking, because at first glance I thought the picture was of two Hispanic gentlemen (maybe not so gentle) and I just continued with that cursory assumption until reading this comment.

        Race aside, the picture is quite humorous and in conjunction with the caption, quite effectively emphasises TopJedi's point.

        • 5 votes
        #19.3 - Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:57 AM EDT
        TopJedi

        I believe Samoan actually.

        • 1 vote
        #19.4 - Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:03 AM EDT
        Luís Bruno

        Anyone actually *cared* for the ethnicity of whoever was in the previous photo?

        <opinion>Actually noticing that ethnicity is part of the definition of being racist.</opinion>

        • 2 votes
        #19.5 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:29 AM EDT
        Reply
        Ilyanep

        Anyone actually *cared* for the ethnicity of whoever was in the previous photo?

        Not at all. In fact, I think I preferred the other one.

        Where do you find all these pictures, TJ?

        • 1 vote
        Reply#20 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:44 AM EDT
        Paddy Ryan

        TOP JEDI, LET ME SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU: CAN'T YOU SEE YOU'RE WRONG? I MEAN, YOU EVEN CLIP YOUR AVATAR'S EARS! REMEMBER THE FOUR "WHAT DOESN'T WORK" THINGS?
        .

        .

        .

        P.S. Great article. You got my vote :-)

        • 4 votes
        Reply#21 - Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:46 PM EDT
        Daniel A. HalloDeleted
        JimmyHavok

        I can't believe you would use such a misogynistic picture for your illustration. You're implying that women have to resort to violence, since they aren't intelligent enough to argue rationally.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#23 - Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:24 AM EDT
        Adam Hobson

        Wow, TopJedi, you cannot win with your picture choices ;-)

        • 2 votes
        #23.1 - Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:26 AM EDT
        Daniel A. HalloDeleted
        JimmyHavok

        Daniel: So, you think women are greedy! No wonder you didn't recognize the misogyny.

        • 1 vote
        #23.3 - Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:32 PM EDT
        Daniel A. HalloDeleted
        Ilyanep

        have you got a misogyny complex?

        Interesting way to put it there

        • 1 vote
        #23.5 - Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:33 AM EDT
        JimmyHavok

        To tell the truth, I thought the original photo was much better. It was two friends obviously goofing around, while the current one is stiff and staged.

        I don't know why the fact that they were Asians would have yanked anyone's chain. Too much PC, I guess.

        • 5 votes
        #23.6 - Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:31 AM EDT
        JimmyHavok

        That picture is totally insulting to Guamanians, who are a gentle people who would never use violence as a tool of persuasion.

        • 2 votes
        #23.7 - Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:29 AM EDT
        TopJedi

        I was going to add as many diverse photos of violence to help balance the discrimination more evenly, but then I realized I would inevitably leave a group out.

        • 1 vote
        #23.8 - Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:51 AM EDT
        JimmyHavok

        I would inevitably leave a group out

        White males?

        • 1 vote
        #23.9 - Sat Jul 1, 2006 4:02 AM EDT
        TopJedi

        It looks like I have the white male segment conveniently covered as a victim above, I was thinking more along the lines of the Zimbabweans and the Outer Mongolians.

        • 2 votes
        #23.10 - Sat Jul 1, 2006 8:37 AM EDT
        JimmyHavok

        White males are always the victims of this kind of stuff.

        • 1 vote
        #23.11 - Sun Jul 2, 2006 12:43 AM EDT
        Reply
        Daniel A. HalloDeleted
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